1998-08 Pitchfork
Interview with John Flansburgh
By Ryan Schreiber, Pitchfork, August 1998
Archived from: https://web.archive.org/web/20030630020552/http://www.tmbg.net/articles/pitchfork1998.html
They Might Be Giants have been playing live for a long, long time. More than 15 years, actually. Finally, after six full-length albums (excluding compilations), they've released their first live record, Severe Tire Damage. The record captures them in all their onstage glory and features several new tracks. We got together with John Flansburgh prior to a free Minneapolis performance to find out what insights he could give us on the band's live concerts, their rabid fanbase, and their nifty internet web site.
Pitchfork: One thing that I wanted to talk to you about was that you seem to have a huge fanbase on the internet. I was wondering how in touch you are with that.
John: I'm completely oblivious to it just because I don't do any of that stuff. But it seems interesting to me. I mean, I'm exactly the kind of person who would probably really get into it if I got into it, but I've been really busy. It's sort of an enigma to me. We tried to make our web site as interesting structurally as possible. When we make records we try to make the most interesting kind of records. Not just like, good songs, but also like the way the record's put together and the way they work.
Pitchfork: I hear you'll be launching the Dial-A-Song online service in September.
John: We're kind of excited about that because it's a new forum that seems like something that people... it's funny because when we did Dial-A-Song on the phone line, a lot of people, even after they heard it, were like, "And... what's that for?" Even though they would experience this thing that's a unique thing to check out. So I guess the thing that's interesting to me about the internet is that it's so open-ended. It's not yet been determined what it's good for and what it's not good for.
Pitchfork: So the Dial-A-Song will become a Real Audio thing?
John: Um, I think it's not Real Audio. It's like whatever Real Audio's competitor is. Some other kind of screaming audio system. I know a lot about the internet even though I never do it. You can't avoid not knowing a lot about it. It'd be like not owning a TV, you know? You'd still hear plenty about it.
Pitchfork: Did you see that your fans pushed you into the #8 position on Time's "Person of the Century" poll?
John: I knew that I was number nine and that I was like between some incredibly distinguished people. It's the most influential people, right?
Pitchfork: It's, well, there's People Magazine's poll which John Linnell was #9 on as the most beautiful person and then Time has their "Person of the Century" poll. And you're right there behind Jesus Christ, Adolf Hitler and Eric Cartman from "South Park."
John: Yeah, Jesus and Hitler are like #1 and #2 and going really strong. Evidently, the contest goes on for a really long time. So I'm sure I'll be knocked out by more pre-eminent rock celebrities than myself. It's just a matter of time before they catch on to its existence, I think. But I don't know. I mean, all these things seem pretty silly to me, but interesting nonetheless.
Pitchfork: When did you sort of decide to put out Severe Tire Damage as a live album?
John: We actually recorded this radio show for Spin Radio Network a couple of years ago at Pachyderm Studios right down the street from here. I mean, not right down street but down the way.
Pitchfork: Right, a good few miles down the way.
John: Yeah, you know. In the midwest, what's a good few miles? Anyway, that came out really well. It was a really good recording. That was probably around the last time I saw you.
Pitchfork: Well, yeah. You were touring in support of Factory Showroom then.
John: So we had that experience. If we hadn't actually gotten a good live band recording, I don't think we would have ever thought of doing a live record. You know, the little bit of experimentation we've done trying to record shows for b-sides of EPs or any other sort of official purpose had failed so miserably that we'd kind of given up on the idea.
Part of it is that it's hard to serve two masters, and when you're doing a live show, you really have to give yourself up to the experience and to the audience. A lot of times, the actual musical document has a lot more huffin' and puffin' in it than you really feel comfortable putting out on a record. So, it's interesting that the Spin Radio Network show that we did that is in large part what is the Severe Tire Damage album is. It was recorded in the studio so you had all of the control of the studio, but in front of a live audience, so it was the best of both worlds.
Pitchfork: So it didn't really make a difference that you were playing in front of an audience? I mean, it didn't make you more self-conscious?
John: I think we were all very aware that we were making a recording of it. What we were trying to do is capture the live band on a really high-quality recording. And I think there was a payoff there that we wouldn't have been able to achieve otherwise. But, of course, there were actually a bunch of tracks on the record that were just recorded at live shows that have all the huffin' and puffin' included.
Anyway, it's a real grab bag of an album. There are a lot of different sources, and some of the tapes were from a show we did at a place in Delaware. I mean, it was just from a lot of different shows.
Pitchfork: [laughs] Delaware. The forgotten state.
John: Yeah. We played in Delaware quite a bit. I like Delaware.
Pitchfork: Do you ever write live, like you'll be like doing improvisation and sort of have something turn into a song?
John: Well, the only thing I can think of that really worked out that way was the song "The Guitar" which actually came out of a bonafide jam session, and there are little things that you sort of trip on. I mean, like the way the rhythm section is doing the middle part right now in "Istanbul" is really cool. It sounds totally different than the record and it doesn't even sound like the same song to me. It's kind of got some weird, like, girl in a cage, boogaloo '60s vibe to it that seems really right for transforming to some other piece of music.
But in terms of improvisation and songwriting, probably the only thing that we've done that really followed through on that idea in a full-blown way was the stuff at the end of Severe Tire Damage. They're these bonus tracks that are all based on the titles of the "Planet of the Apes" movies. Those were all written and recorded completely spontaneously. There was no rehearsal... everybody was doing the thing that they thought of right before they started doing it. And nobody really discussed it too much. I mean, I think at one point I bark out, "You do that disco thing and then I'll jump in" or something like that, but that's all the planning we did for those songs. So it's very vague and very off-the-cuff. What's shocking and maybe a little bit depressing is that they're remarkably close, you know? They're sort of like temporary versions of really good songs.
They're not really good songs, but on first listen they seem like really good songs. They're sort of like an annual flower or something. It kind of flashes up really nice and bright and then like dies never to return.
Pitchfork: [laughs] You're doing a free show in Minneapolis today. Is it part of a bigger tour?
John: Well, we're doing a tour in September and October all across the United States and that's like six weeks and a bus tour. These things are just sort of strange one-offs and, basically, we're just trying to get the word out that we've got this record coming out. Also, there's a video offer. I just finished a video for the song "Doctor Worm" and we want to just mobilize all our fans out there to buy it and request it at your local radio stations.
Do all those things that fans do, because otherwise we just don't have the kind of budgets that really rely on a lot of people that like us to push it over the top. So, we just did this video and it came out great. And actually I think we're gonna try to figure out a way to put it up as a Quicktime movie on the web so people can check it out without having to like stay up to the middle of the night watching some show.
Pitchfork: That's one of the beautiful things about the Internet. You can just go and get stuff whenever you want it. Sadly, most labels don't put the full videos online 'cause they're so afraid it'll damage the record sales if they do. So do you have any idea how many people are expected to turn out today?
John: I have no idea. If the weather holds up I think it'll probably be pretty good. If it goes bad I think it'll probably be pretty bad. On the news they were saying it was going to turn into some kind of strange... there's some really weird weather condition out there.
Pitchfork: That's Minnesota. We're the Land of 10,000 Weird Weather Conditions. Hey, how do you feel about sort of presiding over this geek nation of They Might Be Giants fans?
John: Uh, those are your words not mine.
Pitchfork: Well, I think most of them can admit to being geeks. It's not like they're all, you know, making telephones out of paper clips and television tubes or anything, but they're also, for the most part, not out shooting up heroin, either. They're like the elite group of geeks, 'cause probably most of them have personality.
John: You know, it's very flattering even having fans at all. I mean what can you say? I mean, do you have any fans?
Pitchfork: Maybe, I don't know.
John: I bet you do. I think it's an impossible situation for a person with a mortal-sized self image to deal with. You know, you just kind of go, "Okay." And it gets a little bit stranger for us as we go along, primarily because we meet a lot of people who've been very into the band since they were very young. So you feel more like a teeny bop idol or something. You realize, like, it's not just something these kids became aware of after they were grown up and have a more relative view of things.
Pitchfork: So to them, you've just always been there since they were born. It was like womb, mom, dad, They Might Be Giants.
John: Yeah, and in that way it's actually more of a responsibility 'cause you don't want to, like, be a jerk the one time that somebody meets you. And the potential for being a jerk is really really high because they're acting like super strange.
The first time I experienced it was when we first started playing in Japan. There's this whole way which Japanese teenage girls deal with meeting rock performers that's really based on Beatlemania. And what's funny is that, I think a lot of traveling musicians are under the misimpression that somehow there's much larger significance. They don't realize that it's considered the behavior that you're supposed to... I mean, the Japanese culture is very different than ours in a lot of ways and the way that women behave with men is what we would consider super demure and flirtatious. They're ultra-hyper feminine.
Pitchfork: I know that a lot of bands I talk to are amazed after they come back from Japan. They're all like, "Dude! We're so big in Japan! How did we not know this?"
John: Yeah, so you know, Japan was like the best preparation we could have for dealing with the convulsing fan.
Pitchfork: I always thought it'd be so funny if you guys had groupies.
John: Uh, I'm a married man. I'm too legit to quit.
Pitchfork: What affect do you think you've had on modern music? Like, there I've heard echoes of your music in ska and a lot of pop-punk. Even the swing revival to some degree.
John: Well, we've been around for a long time. I'm constantly talking to musicians from other bands and the things that I hear about are very flattering. There are very few bands that sort of stick to their guns in some ultimate way. So I think a lot of musicians tend to be very cynical about where they stand in the world of commercial music. I think we've always tried to strike the best balance between being available to the public and being kind of a personal project.
When we started this band, it seemed rather obvious that being a professional musician was not necessarily in the cards. You know, what we're doing is kind of extreme and really not for everybody... and certainly not represented on the radio in any way. So we didn't really waste a lot of time worrying about that stuff. We just kind of pursued our own ideas and interests and got better at it because we just focused on the good part.
I've talked to a lot of musicians who said it was very inspiring to see a band that was always such a personal project. I think from other people's point of view, we seem more fearless than a lot of other bands, but actually, I think we're just kind of resigned to our own marginal place in the culture. That's where we're always going to be, you know? Like just sort of clawing at the door of the big time. I don't think we'll ever get any larger success than we've had, and we might just be hanging out in total obscurity for the rest of our careers. But it's a big deal. I've done a lot of kinds of jobs, and this is not a bad one.
Pitchfork: Well, there are people who would say that your first three albums are classics. Sort of quintessential modern rock albums, you know?
John: But how good is modern rock?
Pitchfork: But it's a different kind of modern rock. Like the equivalent of new wave. They have to put it somewhere because it doesn't fit anywhere else--that was what modern rock was all about at the beginning. So, as far as that goes, they really are sort of like... modern new wave classics.
John: I think they're good records and... there's something about any band's first album that seems sort of full blown to me. But I don't know. I wonder if any bands in any musical format right now are really that important. I get the feeling that the rock scene of the '90s is like really, really unimportant. I mean, I'm a little bit older than a lot of people who'll be reading this. But when I was a teenager--I'm gonna sound like grandpa here--the only thing that was really for my generation... the only sort of things that you'd go to the mall and buy a fragment of, or maybe catch a glimmer of on like Late Night weekend TV, was rock.
Pitchfork: Yeah, that's definitely changed. But I think it's because people aren't hearing music they're interested in anymore. And that's not because it's not out there, it's because it's all corporate controlled, and they've worked the system in such a way so they can make as much money out of everyone as is humanly possible. There's so much great music right now, and it's just not being heard. Like, Ben Folds Five is a great example of a terrific band that only broke through because they wrote "Brick" which was a real Carpenters kind of crossover hit. I predict that to be their first and last hit single. Not because people don't like the band, but because modern rock is now all about Matchbox 20. It's a question now of how generic you can get.
John: The thing that's kind of fantastic to me about the internet--especially for people who are like living outside of cities--is that they're really allowed to get involved in a full-on way with sub-cultural and counter-cultural ideas. Like, if your interests lie outside of Tom Hanks movies or Tom Cruise movies it's a very powerful format in which to explore other things.
That really didn't exist when I was a kid. I mean, there was hippie counter-culture and there was like underground comics and there were these crazy records and freeform radio. There was a counter-cultural thing going on. It was pretty full-blown. But it was also sort of based on a lot of assumptions of what groupie behavior was, and it was very type-cast. It was probably about as narrow a set of ideas as like a sub-culture. There are a lot of things about it that were just extremely normal in sub-cultural kinds of ways.
What's interesting to me about the internet is that it promotes all forms of identity. Whether you're like into crazy sexuality or whether you're very academic. You get just as much support out of that outlet. I think it's actually kind of cool and maybe even a better way for young people to find their personal path through life. I think it's a great thing. But this is coming from somebody who spends virtually no time on the internet.
Pitchfork: But, see, you had a lot of bands on the radio that were doing things differently--Cheap Trick, Kiss, Parliament, James Brown...
John: But rock seems strangely beside the point. Personally, I love music. I spend all my time making music and I think music is cool, but rock culture seems especially dead to me. It seems like it's really hard for people to figure out how to stretch it out and make something new out of it. More and more it just seems like there's cycles of revision.
I was thinking of this band Jethro Tull, and I'm like wondering when there's gonna be a new band that's a lot like Jethro Tull. Because it seems like there are these Americana bands like Wilco, and they're all kind of like The Band or like Bob Dylan and that kind of traditional kind of music. You know, there are bands that are like The Grateful Dead. And you know, broadly speaking, I think we're closer Frank Zappa or Captain Beefheart. We're definitely in this thread coming down from there.
The only thing that I can think of that seemed like it was really driving at one time in rock that is completely dormant now is this Jethro Tull thing. It's like this... spider webs in the attic, you know? Maybe people just aren't interested enough in like reading Dickens or something. But to me, it seems like there's an opportunity there.
Pitchfork: Does it bother you that a lot of people see They Might Be Giants as more of a novelty band, though? You get lumped into that category a lot, but I know it's not about being wacky for you.
John: You know, everybody's got their little pigeon hole. I don't like it particularly because I think it cuts people off from listening to the songs in an open-minded way. If there was like a way to not have like a name on our song or a name for our band and exist, I think that would be the most interesting way to present our music. Because I think what happens is everybody's so hung up on identity and saying like, "Oh, these guys do this kind of thing." I'm much more interested in the song as an abstract idea.
Just like if people could hear our songs and not wonder what kind of people we were, that would be like the best way to present our songs. I mean I recognize that it's a total pipe dream, but at the same time, a lot of the ideas that we explore in our songwriting are not hitched to the idea that you have any preconceived notion of what kind of people we are.
A lot of times we're trying to write from a character's point of view or we're trying to write abstractly in a way where you'll just hear the imagery of the song coming at you and have it just sort of sweep you away. I think the more involved you get in thinking about songwriters as individuals and as personalities, the harder it is to get to that place.